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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 23 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1385<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: Laws of War<BR>
re: Slavery<BR>
Rules of War<BR>
Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
Virus?<BR>
OT: The Death Star (was Re: Mass Destruction)<BR>
Re: Virus?<BR>
Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!<BR>
Which Traveller?<BR>
Re: Virus?<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: Two things....<BR>
Re: Virus?<BR>
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...<BR>
Re: Imperial culture<BR>
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...<BR>
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:50:02 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
On 11/22/99 at 02:21 PM,  Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Looking at MM's page on the Classic Traveller Reprints, <BR>
<BR>
>HTTP://members.aol.com/Traveller/T401-00.html ,<BR>
<BR>
>I'm looking forward to a chance at the entirety of the original JTAS<BR>
>run - I've read about six issues, and the Best of JTAS #1 - #4, but I<BR>
>know I missed a lot of good stuff. $28+shipping per 12 issues<BR>
>certainly  beats the current $5-$10 per issue I'm seeing on EBay for<BR>
>back issues.<BR>
<BR>
That's the one place that I have you beat then Walt.  I bought every<BR>
one of the Journals and I have all but a couple of the Challenges.<BR>
What I don't have are all the Traveller and MT Digests.  <sigh> If<BR>
only "He Who Should Be Shot" would agree to let *them* be reprinted.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:54:58 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Laws of War<BR>
<BR>
Today, the use of reprisals, should one side violate the conventions, is<BR>
still<BR>
tightly controlled:<BR>
<BR>
(The Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations (NWP 1-14M))<BR>
<BR>
"6.2.3 Reprisal. A reprisal is an enforcement measure under the law of armed<BR>
conflict consisting of an act which would otherwise be unlawful but which is<BR>
justified as a response to the unlawful acts of an enemy. The sole purpose<BR>
of a reprisal is to induce the enemy to cease its illegal activity and to<BR>
comply with the law of armed conflict. Reprisals may be taken against enemy<BR>
armed forces, enemy civilians other than those in occupied territory, and<BR>
enemy property.<BR>
<BR>
6.2.3.1 Requirements for Reprisal. To be valid, a reprisal action must<BR>
conform to the following criteria:<BR>
<BR>
1. Reprisal must be ordered by an authorized representative of the<BR>
belligerent government. (For the rule applicable to the United States, see<BR>
paragraph 6.2.3.3).<BR>
<BR>
2. It must respond to illegal acts of warfare committed by an adversary<BR>
government, its military commanders, or combatants for which the adversary<BR>
is responsible. Anticipatory reprisal is not authorized.<BR>
<BR>
3. When circumstances permit, reprisal must be preceded by a demand for<BR>
redress by the enemy of his unlawful acts.<BR>
<BR>
4. Its purpose must be to cause the enemy to cease its unlawful activity.<BR>
Therefore, acts taken in reprisal should be brought to the attention of the<BR>
enemy in order to achieve maximum effectiveness. Reprisal must never be<BR>
taken for revenge.<BR>
<BR>
5. Reprisal must only be used as a last resort when other enforcement<BR>
measures have failed or would be of no avail.<BR>
<BR>
6. Each reprisal must be proportional to the original violation.<BR>
<BR>
7. A reprisal action must cease as soon as the enemy is induced to desist<BR>
from its unlawful activities and to comply with the law of armed conflict."<BR>
<BR>
I would have to assume that in the 3I, similar restrictions are in place.<BR>
Even if there are no *written* treaties. The Geneva Conventions are only<BR>
about 50 years old, if I remember correctly (that's a big if), but the same<BR>
principles have been followed for quite a while. After over a thousand years<BR>
of interstellar war, I would expect the same types of conventions to be<BR>
followed, even if they are not in writing.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the 3I canon setting is not so unbelievable after all...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 8:52 PM<BR>
Subject: re: Laws of War<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> It seems I spoke too soon.<BR>
><BR>
> My interpretation of the various Hague and Geneva conventions was<BR>
> incorrect. While it is true that the involvement of even one belligerent<BR>
> releases other belligerents from following the agreements, the<BR>
> release from the agreements appears to apply to all belligerents<BR>
> in the conflict, regardless of which side (or sides) they may be on.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Wanna see what happens when a junior diplomat on the<BR>
> spot has a different understanding of the intent of a treaty than the<BR>
> senior who gave him his orders six months ago? Paging Mr. Retief...<BR>
><BR>
> (Granted, Retief's interpretation of a treaty was generally 1000%<BR>
> better than his boss's...)<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:56:57 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: re: Slavery<BR>
<BR>
The Roc said<BR>
>>><BR>
All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed) into Roman society, but<BR>
when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't, etc.) were they repressed.<BR>
Christianity was repressed because of it's belief that there is only one<BR>
true god and that was heavily against Roman ways and it's belief in<BR>
polythesionism.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
It was worse than that. Before the Diasporia, the early christians concidered<BR>
themselves Jews (as Yesuda of Nazereth was King of the Jews) . The Jews<BR>
themselves wanted nothing to do with a heritical sect (as for among other<BR>
things, jepodised their concesions with the empire in terms of worship of Ceasar<BR>
et al). So in order to prevent all of these "fake jews" claiming benifits that<BR>
the jews had, the christians where persicuted.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:00:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Rules of War<BR>
<BR>
Walt wrote:<BR>
ObTrav: Wanna see what happens when a junior diplomat<BR>
on the<BR>
spot has a different understanding of the intent of a<BR>
treaty than the<BR>
senior who gave him his orders six months ago? Paging<BR>
Mr. Retief...<BR>
Kyle adds: good IRL example, the British and teir<BR>
recent thing of whether or not nukes are lawful. Note<BR>
that the Geneva conventions and protocols prohobit the<BR>
use of weapons that:<BR>
"...cause superfluous injury or unneccesarry<BR>
suffering..."<BR>
"...cause widespread long-term and severe damage to<BR>
the natural environment"<BR>
"...Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of<BR>
which is to spread terror among the civilian<BR>
population are prohibited."<BR>
<BR>
and also prohibited are "indiscriminate" weapons such<BR>
as "...Those which employ a method or means of combat<BR>
which cannot be directed at a specific military<BR>
objective..." <BR>
<BR>
And there are those that say nukes fall into this<BR>
category. The Brit government disagrees, but its<BR>
scottish courts do not, saying that a person who'd<BR>
vandalised a Trident submarine couldn't be prosecuted,<BR>
because that submarine was illegal under international<BR>
law. The UK govt says the conventions apply only to<BR>
"conventional" weapons, not nukes. Hmmmm....<BR>
<BR>
So a diplomat certainly could have a different<BR>
interpretation to his own government.<BR>
<BR>
Cris Seamans asks why ban rocks but not energy<BR>
weapons? I don't know, why ban gas but not nukes? Why<BR>
ban poisoned bullets but not agent orange? Why ban<BR>
serrated bayonets and shotguns but not frag grenades?<BR>
I can only answer that some weapons are more<BR>
"terrible" than others, in the sense of inspiring more<BR>
terror and horro. Gas, for example, definately is<BR>
scarier than bullets, regardless of statsistics of<BR>
deadliness. And I will be more scared of a screaming<BR>
mad looking soldier charging at me with a serrated<BR>
bayonet, than Fritz with his frag grenade. Strange but<BR>
true.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:02:36 -0600<BR>
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ideological Warfare<BR>
<BR>
On 11/22/99 at 12:00 PM,  Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I would tend to agree with you; that's why I mentioned that it was<BR>
>what he said.  But I can't remember what Carthage was about... it's<BR>
>being one of those days at work, and the period of history I know<BR>
>best begins with Julius Caesar and ends with the Enlightenment, at<BR>
>least as far as Europe is concerned.  =)  Forgive my space brain and<BR>
>tell me if there was an ideological component to Carthage or if it<BR>
>was one of those hundreds of years of ethnic hatred due to close<BR>
>competition things.<BR>
<BR>
Culmination of the Punic Wars.  It wasn't ideological, exactly.  It<BR>
wasn't racial, exactly.  It wasn't religious, at all.  I'd say it<BR>
was mostly economic and political. <BR>
<BR>
Let's say the young Third Imperium had a competing state that was<BR>
almost as large and powerful.  This competing state was actively<BR>
courting systems to join it, and succeeding more often than the<BR>
Imperium likes.  The Imperium and this state go to war time and<BR>
again, but neither side can really defeat the other.  It's not<BR>
racial, it's not ethnic, it's not religious, but both sides are<BR>
going to grow to hate and despise each other.  Finally, the Imperium<BR>
finds a way to capture their opponent's capital, and they make "an<BR>
example" of it.  Then they offer "terms" to the rest of their<BR>
opposition..."accept our terms or suffer the fate of Carthage."<BR>
<BR>
Is this how the Julian Wars would have ended *if* the Imperium had<BR>
won?  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:18:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>The K'Kree gladly nuke "bad" worlds, but won't destroy inhabitable (to<BR>
>>them) worlds that way. Aslan follow the Imperial way of thinking, but<BR>
>>some clans just *might* have an ace or two up their sleeve.<BR>
><BR>
>         I'd say this is right on...  "Don't push us, or we'll prove to you<BR>
> wether or not we have nuclear weapons...."<BR>
<BR>
This is a good place to point out that cultural differences can get you<BR>
in *real* trouble with this sort of thing. As an extreme example, check<BR>
out L.E. Modesitt's "Adiamante". <BR>
<BR>
A culture that considers "if you do that, we'll do this" to be a form<BR>
of aggression. Likewise for displays of force. All they can do is try<BR>
to set up situations where if their "visitors" can actually stop and<BR>
*think through* the implications of things they are seeing, they might<BR>
figure out that they'll be in big trouble if they start anything.<BR>
<BR>
And, naturally, part of the problem is that even when they let the<BR>
"vistors" read a copy of the "rules" they live by (or the basic<BR>
principles behind them) the visitors reaction is "They can't *really*<BR>
mean that".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:33:38 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Virus?<BR>
<BR>
Okay, here's another one.<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone summarize for me, preferably in 200 words or less, the<BR>
exact relationship between the TNE Virus and the CT "living chips"<BR>
of Cymbeline?<BR>
<BR>
(I'm doing world capsule descriptions in order, I'm about to hit Arcturus<BR>
subsector, and I *really* ought to have a sidebar on Why Virus Hasn't<BR>
Happened and Probably Won't in the G:T timeline.  And me without a<BR>
copy of the Virus Sourcebook. . .)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:41:53 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: OT: The Death Star (was Re: Mass Destruction)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
> Nope. Doesn't match the photos. For that size, and the size of the<BR>
> central trench, relative to the diameter of the DS, when we get to the<BR>
> shot where the trench almost fills the screen, the hangar bay wouldn't<BR>
> be *visible*.<BR>
<BR>
And Richard wrote:<BR>
> I thought it was the second Death Star that was 120 km? IIRC, someone<BR>
> worked it out using the amount that the hull curved in relation to the<BR>
> length of the command ship that crashed into the DS in ROTJ.<BR>
<BR>
I point you toward the incredibly overdone Star Wars Technical Commentaries:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html<BR>
<BR>
More than you ever wanted to know about the Death Star, all on one page. It<BR>
includes an assessment of size based on several measuring techniques.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:57:05 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Virus?<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, here's another one.<BR>
> <BR>
> Can anyone summarize for me, preferably in 200 words or less, the<BR>
> exact relationship between the TNE Virus and the CT "living chips"<BR>
> of Cymbeline?<BR>
<BR>
From _Survival Margin_, page 79:<BR>
<BR>
"When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the<BR>
development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he<BR>
planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command<BR>
prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical<BR>
contact with them."<BR>
<BR>
Ibid, page 79:<BR>
<BR>
"The two main strengths of the virus, its heritage from the Cymbeline<BR>
chips, were 1) its intelligence, and 2) its ability to cut new<BR>
circuitry, i.e., embed itself in hardware, not just software."<BR>
> <BR>
> (I'm doing world capsule descriptions in order, I'm about to hit Arcturus<BR>
> subsector, and I *really* ought to have a sidebar on Why Virus Hasn't<BR>
> Happened and Probably Won't in the G:T timeline.  And me without a<BR>
> copy of the Virus Sourcebook. . .)<BR>
<BR>
Hope those two quotes help, and good luck on your project.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:07:10 -0600<BR>
From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> (I am reposting this message as most of it was cut off<BR>
> in the first transmission.)<BR>
><BR>
> MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!<BR>
> Zhodanis occupy capital<BR>
> Ming the Merciless Missing <snipped etc><BR>
<BR>
Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
>Glenn:<BR>
>IS this an actual campaign? If so, when does Flash Gordon, Dale Arden<BR>
>and Dr. Zarkov show up? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
Yes! Yes! And all of us lurkers want the stats for Ming the Merciless!<BR>
<BR>
Dan Roseberry(Plop 101) IMTU: tc++ tm++ he+  Dr+ Ne+ Da+ etc.<BR>
plop, (`plop) -n. def. 2; penguin light ortillery platoon ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:31:14 -0800<BR>
From: "Tim MacPherson" <timac@home.com><BR>
Subject: Which Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
I am looking to pick up a starter set of Traveller. I used to have Traveller<BR>
Classic ...yeeeears ago. Now there is all kinds of editions. I don't have a<BR>
group ...so if I did play it would most likely be by PBEM. CT? GURPS? T:NE?<BR>
T4?<BR>
<BR>
Help a newbie (sorta)<BR>
<BR>
Tim MacPherson<BR>
Kelowna,BC<BR>
CANADA<BR>
timac@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:31:22 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Virus?<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/23/99 1:55:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
wombat@premier.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> "When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the<BR>
>  development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he<BR>
>  planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command<BR>
>  prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical<BR>
>  contact with them."<BR>
<BR>
Many thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Now, who was this fellow?  Some Solomani officer who found out about<BR>
the chips after the Solomani overran Cymbeline?  Or an Imperial officer?<BR>
<BR>
The point is: can I assume that the Imperium knows about the chips<BR>
in 1120 of the alternate timeline?<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:51:21 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
...<BR>
>Other possibilities:<BR>
><BR>
>Chinese Imperial bureaucracy.<BR>
>Cultural Russians, "reviving" the Czarist model.<BR>
>Roman Revival.<BR>
<BR>
 <ahem>  consider:<BR>
        the probable linguistic roots of "Aslan"<BR>
        the population described in A:9, Nomads of the World Ocean.<BR>
        the basis (AM:8, p.8) of the Darrian technical explosion.<BR>
<BR>
 The OTU is _Turks in Space_! And while you might not want to turn your<BR>
backs on them, at least they're humble about their achievements :><BR>
<BR>
  Deal with it :)               <fnord><BR>
                <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:52:34 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Two things....<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>> posses a credit card and sending a cheque in US dollars is problematic<BR>
>> for us Brits, but the archive article gave me enough background to work<BR>
>> on.  Thanks again - excellent article.<BR>
><BR>
>Check with the Post Office and various banks. Odds are that you can buy<BR>
>a Money Order in US funds without *too* much trouble.<BR>
<BR>
  I was pleasantly surprised recently to discover that I could buy Canada<BR>
Post IMO's in sterling - that expands the amount and type of products that<BR>
I'm willing to mail-order from the UK; I've been told that you can get $US<BR>
IMO's in Japan (my first auction sale to Asia! :> ).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:57:37 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Virus?<BR>
<BR>
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 11/23/99 1:55:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,<BR>
> wombat@premier.net writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > "When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the<BR>
> >  development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he<BR>
> >  planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command<BR>
> >  prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical<BR>
> >  contact with them."<BR>
> <BR>
> Many thanks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Now, who was this fellow?  Some Solomani officer who found out about<BR>
> the chips after the Solomani overran Cymbeline?  Or an Imperial officer?<BR>
<BR>
An Imperial Navy officer, Admiral Stearns served as Chief of Combined<BR>
Imperial Intelligence from 1097 to 1108 (_Survival Margin_, page 71).<BR>
> <BR>
> The point is: can I assume that the Imperium knows about the chips<BR>
> in 1120 of the alternate timeline?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, the Imperium knows about these chips in 1120.  After all, the<BR>
SDG-313F strain of chips, a "lobotomized" version of the Cymbeline<BR>
chips, was introduced as the basis for Imperial transponders in 1088<BR>
(ibid, pages 70-71).  Further, since Admiral Stearns ordered the<BR>
development of Virus during his tenure as Chief of Combined Imperial<BR>
Intelligence, the possibility of Virus was recognized no later than<BR>
1108.  Finally, Dr. Arnold Rushorin, formerly of the Free University of<BR>
Aquitaine, defected to the Imperium in 1110, and published a<BR>
heavily-censored paper on the Cymbeline chips in 1114 (ibid, page 72).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry I can't provide more detailed information, but _Survival Margin_<BR>
is the only TNE sourcebook I own.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:49:42 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...<BR>
<BR>
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>><BR>
>> Rome actually was a pretty good place to live throughout most of its<BR>
>> history; it gets a bad rap due to Sunday School stories, but Christianity<BR>
was one of the few religions it *DIDN'T* tolerate and that was because the<BR>
Christians were actively campaigning against the gov't-- Rome ignored<BR>
religion except when it interfered with government and only ever really got<BR>
seriously into oppressing three religions:  Zoroastrianism, Druidism and<BR>
Christianity.<BR>
>><BR>
>All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed) into Roman society,<BR>
but when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't, etc.) were they<BR>
repressed. Christianity was repressed because of its belief that there is<BR>
only one true god and that was heavily against Roman ways and it's belief in<BR>
polythesionism.<BR>
><BR>
No, that is *not* it.<BR>
<BR>
The Jews had only one god and they were left alone.  They were even given an<BR>
exemption from worshipping the Emperor-- but they didn't refuse to serve in<BR>
the army or pay taxes because of their beliefs. (Some Christians refused to<BR>
pay taxes, I forget the exact reason, and many Christian groups prior to the<BR>
Council of Nicaea were pacifist.)  There were all kinds of problems with<BR>
Christians not obeying various Roman laws which is why so many of the<BR>
epistles stress obedience to the established order.  That whole "women<BR>
should obey their husbands" thing that Christian women get slammed down<BR>
their throats is being taken out of context-- it's from a larger sermon<BR>
wherein the importance of obeying societal laws is being stressed, in which<BR>
slaves are also told to obey their masters.  Many early Christians were<BR>
antinomian, or "anti-law", believing that the Old Testament Law was not the<BR>
only law they didn't have to follow on account of Jesus' sacrifice.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Also, the Jews were mostly born into their religion, whereas Christianity<BR>
was spread by conversion.  Hmmm... you are a large Empire, and you have a<BR>
religion sweeping thru your society by conversion that is causing people to<BR>
disobey their superiors and the law generally, how do you handle it?  Unless<BR>
you're Constantine, and can see the wisdom of taking it over and trying to<BR>
control it, you probably try to suppress it...<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan         93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out here who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                                     -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:53:24 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial culture<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Robert Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Who says Imperial culture is Western?<BR>
>>><BR>
>> I would expect Imperial culture in any given TU to reflect the culture or<BR>
cultures that the referee comes from, modified by what historical reading<BR>
the ref has done and what sort of SF the ref likes to read.  This isn't<BR>
particularly logical but it makes for better gaming.<BR>
>><BR>
>Just consider the temptations for a ref who is interested in Japanese<BR>
culture, and is fond of Shogun and samurai movies.<BR>
><BR>
And we don't know anyone at all like that, do we??<BR>
<BR>
>Now *that* would be an interesting Imperium. And oddly enough, you could<BR>
even justify it, by extrapolating from Japanese dominance in various<BR>
industries and their interest in space.<BR>
><BR>
This was the basis of my Shiratori Colonies stories-- and Shiratori and its<BR>
colonies exist in my TU.<BR>
<BR>
>Other possibilities:<BR>
><BR>
>Chinese Imperial bureaucracy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking about writing one of those too.<BR>
<BR>
>Cultural Russians, "reviving" the Czarist model.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
That'd be cool.<BR>
<BR>
>Roman Revival.<BR>
><BR>
Overdone, but would be interesting to see done WELL.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>If I won the lottery, I'd be tempted to hire a few anthro majors and dig up<BR>
what's known about *all* the cultures on Earth, and see what we could do in<BR>
the way of trying to "grow" them into industrial cultures, and then on to<BR>
planet-spanning cultures, spacefaring cultures, starfaring cultures, and<BR>
finally to interstellar cultures.  It'd make for one *hell* of a sourcebook.<BR>
Probably more like a *series* of sourcebooks.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Can I help?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan         93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out here who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                                     -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:28:51 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...<BR>
<BR>
On 22 Nov 99, at 23:49, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
> >From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Rome actually was a pretty good place to live throughout most of its<BR>
> >> history; it gets a bad rap due to Sunday School stories, but<BR>
> >> Christianity<BR>
> was one of the few religions it *DIDN'T* tolerate and that was because the<BR>
> Christians were actively campaigning against the gov't-- Rome ignored<BR>
> religion except when it interfered with government and only ever really<BR>
> got seriously into oppressing three religions:  Zoroastrianism, Druidism<BR>
> and Christianity. >> >All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed)<BR>
> into Roman society, but when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't,<BR>
> etc.) were they repressed. Christianity was repressed because of its<BR>
> belief that there is only one true god and that was heavily against Roman<BR>
> ways and it's belief in polythesionism. > No, that is *not* it.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Jews had only one god and they were left alone.  They were even given<BR>
> an exemption from worshipping the Emperor-- but they didn't refuse to<BR>
> serve in the army or pay taxes because of their beliefs. (Some Christians<BR>
> refused to pay taxes, I forget the exact reason, and many Christian groups<BR>
> prior to the Council of Nicaea were pacifist.)  There were all kinds of<BR>
> problems with Christians not obeying various Roman laws which is why so<BR>
> many of the epistles stress obedience to the established order.  That<BR>
> whole "women should obey their husbands" thing that Christian women get<BR>
> slammed down their throats is being taken out of context-- it's from a<BR>
> larger sermon wherein the importance of obeying societal laws is being<BR>
> stressed, in which slaves are also told to obey their masters.  Many early<BR>
> Christians were antinomian, or "anti-law", believing that the Old<BR>
> Testament Law was not the only law they didn't have to follow on account<BR>
> of Jesus' sacrifice.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Also, the Jews were mostly born into their religion, whereas Christianity<BR>
> was spread by conversion.  Hmmm... you are a large Empire, and you have a<BR>
> religion sweeping thru your society by conversion that is causing people<BR>
> to disobey their superiors and the law generally, how do you handle it? <BR>
> Unless you're Constantine, and can see the wisdom of taking it over and<BR>
> trying to control it, you probably try to suppress it...<BR>
<BR>
Especially when they also preach that their god is the only god, and <BR>
your empire covers a very large area with many diverse cultures that <BR>
have different religions. However much I dislike the later empires <BR>
suppression of pagans, in the long run conversion of the (Roman)empire <BR>
to Christianity was probably the only way to preserve it.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <paradise.net.nz><BR>
Wellington, New Zealand<BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:18:58 -0800<BR>
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)<BR>
<BR>
> After World War I, everybody was really horrified by how chemical weapons<BR>
> had escalated out of hand. In World War II, interestingly enough, I can't<BR>
> think of the use of chemical weapons on a large scale in World War II<BR>
> (actually, I can't think of their use on a small scale either, but I'm<BR>
> hedging my bets here since there are quite a few people on the list with an<BR>
> astonishing mind for detail) with the exception of the death camps, but the<BR>
> dynamic was quite different from the battlefield.<BR>
<BR>
The Japanese made extensive use of chemical and bacteriological warfare<BR>
in China.  They had a large installation in the middle of the country<BR>
dedicated entirely to experimenting on Chinese prisoners (and some<BR>
Allied P.O.W.s) with new germs and chemicals.  Then they used these<BR>
germs and chemicals on troops and civilians.  One example I remember<BR>
involved putting mosquitos that carried some disease (probably malaria)<BR>
into big clay jars and dropping out of airplanes into Chinese villages.  <BR>
<BR>
The scientists were never prosecuted as war criminals.  The bargain was,<BR>
they provided their research results to the United States and the United<BR>
Nations would not prosecute. If I recall correctly, some of them came to<BR>
work for the United States military, much as the more famous German<BR>
rocket scientists did.  <BR>
<BR>
It's very well documented.  Last year I saw a quite horrifying<BR>
exhibition about it at the old navy base on Treasure Island in San<BR>
Francisco Bay.  If the exhibition comes to your town, go see it. <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1385<BR>
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